Chixe

That's tough. I think if Hazel is really a good friend of Doug's she'd be able to understand that their relationship is putting some stress on another relationship Doug is trying to build. Basically I think that the amount of communication/contact is a little excessive. I don't think anyone can expect Doug to just stop talking to a close friend, but maybe some moderation is in order.

And, if all goes well Hazel and Doug's new girl can probably become friends and the whole situation will become moot.

Of course that's a pretty happy-go-lucky, the world is truly beautiful kind of opinion, meaning it probably won't go as smoothly as what I'm imagining.

I'd say excessive, without a doubt. I don't know the age of these people, but for any young adult there should be things in your life to distribute your attention and focus; I consider it a bad sign, in a platonic relationship (and even a romantic relationship) if one person is on your mind all of the time. I think it suggests that there are other things in her life that are out of sync and need her attention.

In this sense it might even prolong the rough patch getting all of her support from Doug. While he can certainly help her to some extent, she should be finding support elsewhere as well.

2-4000 messages and 27 calls a month for 8 months is way, way excessive. The only people I've known that needed that much support were clinically depressed — more phone support from me was only a temporary solution. Ultimately, they needed professional help (not saying that's what Hazel needs, just taking an example).

@carmodyarc: Don't you mean 'mute'? ;P

Honestly, I think the level of communication is a little excessive. I will often text or call mates (of differing sexes) from work relating to a social, but it isn't almost every day and night of the month. Having said that, if Doug and Mary communicated better between themselves, surely they could have settled this "dispute" without feeling the need for a mediator. Maybe it is time the three of them sat around a table and had an honest conversation?

Hazel is overstepping her bounds. Simply put, if she were in Mary's shoes, she would be entitled to be very angry. I am also thinking that it should matter to Doug that Mary is upset with Hazel's calls taking up 80-90% of texts, not even 50% or less. If they don't work together, shouldn't Mary be the source of that many text messages? Or even that percentage of cell phone minutes?

It doesn't really make any sense for a platonic relationship. Hazel seems really needy. If I truly cared about my friend-that-is-a-guy and his relationship, I would try to get along with his girlfriend. Then again, that is above and beyond--also getting to know her--but at the very minimum I would make sure that my behavior didn't intrude on her grounds, or made her uncomfortable.

I feel bad for you, Tyme, that you were put in the middle of this! I would scream if my friend came over and did that ... maybe I am a bad friend. ;)

I can see no reason to be in contact with a person who is your significant other that much, so for me it seems extremely excessive and a waste of time.

I don't know Hazel she may be a very nice person, but I always find people who spend all their time calling and tm'ing others about their problems to be a passive aggressive manipulators.

I think it suggests that there are other things in her life that are out of sync and need her attention.

In this sense it might even prolong the rough patch getting all of her support from Doug. While he can certainly help her to some extent, she should be finding support elsewhere as well.

Exactly my thoughts and I honestly can't find a counter point to dispute it.

@Ollie - I think he brought her by because I could say there is no romantic interest in this girl (I've known him for years) but I believe there is a romantic interest on the girl's side - otherwise she'd have more of a life. To initiate that many messages all throughout the day that means Doug is on her mind that much. That's disturbing to me.

Putting Mary and Hazel in the same room wouldn't be a good idea lol. Mary thinks Hazel is taking advantage of the friendship and is trying to compromise but right now, she's not liking Hazel that much. Mary views Doug's inability or willingness to get the situation under control a sign of problems that will come in the future.

Looking at the math on a low month approx. 1700/2000 messages are with Hazel. On a high month 3400/4000. Taking an average month of 3000 messages and with 30 days in a month that's 100 messages in a day. They are spending about 4 hours a month sending text messages back and forth, not including the time they actually spend on the phone and the time he sees her while out and about.

Wow.

@estarla - haha if I were Mary to me that would be a huge disrespect. From what I saw Mary was had perhaps 20 or 30 tops per month. I agree it makes zero sense for a platonic relationship and I give props to Mary because I never met her before and I could tell she was really trying to be patient. I just couldn't in good faith agree with Doug.

@cooper - girl, I'm with you and I definitely think Hazel is manipulating/taking advantage of the situation.

All I have to say is

CRAZY, CRAZY, CRAZY!

In all seriousness for a platonic relationship Hazel is being entirely too overbearing. Doug needs to put his foot down and explain to her that her communication is beyond excessive.

What on earth can you have to say that you need to send 2-4000 texts to a persona? That's outrageous.

It's easy to rack up a lot of texts with someone, but calls at 3am? I might be a little ticked at even my boyfriend for doing that. What is so important that she can't wait until morning?

Hazel screams control freak to me. Or maybe she has a lack of control in her life and is trying to control what she can.

What disturbs me is that for someone who's yet to be the girlfriend, how did Mary get her hands on Doug's phone bills?

Right, this is how I see it.

Mary, don't get your hands too deep into Doug's life.

Hazel, find more friends you can connect to.

The simplicity of all this is that both women are being insecure and the guy isn't being assertive enough. A common problem on all sides and not just one.

In Mary's case, she's being insecure that she feels threatened by Hazel, enough that I feel...if you can get your hands on the phone bill to show to your friend, you got to be that insecure. Given that she isn't exactly his girlfriend and she does that, what's more to say if she is his girlfriend? What's next? Stop him from flirting with any other woman that walks his path? She needs to take a deep breathe and calm down. Problems like this aren't solved on high strung emotions.

Doug on the other hand is being like any other guy. He isn't putting his foot down simply because he doesn't want to hurt any side, particularly Hazel. Guys on a general rule don't like to mess around with women's emotions which...well...DOES mess around with their emotions. One way or another, he's got to draw some lines, otherwise this mess with Hazel is going to get bigger by the minute and the hurt will be far worse.

Hazel sounds like the type of women I deal with a lot. If you're nice and you're caring enough, they will latch on to you. And they can as platonic friends. Some have small time crushes, some can develop into a big time obsession if no lines are to be drawn. The point really is that Hazel needs to get out more and see more people. Dependency of this kind happens when they are too insecure to venture out to meet other people, but instead latch on to the first good thing they find. Which in this case, is Doug.

I'm not unfamiliar with this kind of triangle. I see it a lot and I've dealt with it a lot. I can tell you that chances are, it'll end messily unless all three of them come to their senses. Because as a guy who's friends are all women while having a girlfriend, everyone has to know where they stand and what's in front of them. Otherwise its going to be one large headache one way or another.

That's as neutral as I can get.

I find Hazel's behavior to be bordering on the obsessive, to be bizarre, controlling and unnecessary. But, if Doug is permitting it, then maybe he enjoys the attention Mary gives him, via text messaging, phone calls, etc.

It might not be a big deal to him, because he thrives on the attention...it could be a two-way street. If he really wanted her to stop, he would make sure she did. There are tactful ways to disengage yourself. Maybe he hasn't totally moved forward, himself.

@LorriM - He clearly thrives on attention. He is allowing her to do it, for an extended period of time, so he's getting "something" out of it. Hazel is bad news but Doug doesn't see it.

@Kamigoroshi - I got the impression Doug willingly showed them to her. Mary doesn't seem insecure because she is fine with Hazel and Doug being friends but feels uncomfortable at the amount of contact. Normally people have natural boundaries out of respect (don't call too early or late). Mary was perplexed at why his cell phone would go off no matter what time it was and that's what brought the entire thing up. Mary thought Doug was on call with his job because of the off times his phone would go off. If I hadn't seen the bills myself I wouldn't have believed it.

Mary told Doug every time Hazel initiated contact Doug was on her mind and doesn't include the times she thought about him and didn't contact him. That is why I think he thrives on attention because he didn't see anything wrong with that. Sure it's easy to rack up text messages but to be the dominating person for 8 months? 27/30 days and still talk to and see the person? And they aren't in a relationship? Sorry, she's sick and I think he's sicker to let it happen.

Doug complains about not having the type of life he wants. He wants to go back to school but doesn't have time. That's laughable to me now...put the phone down and he'd have plenty.

Yes, it's not only excessive, it's obsessive. Your friend and his friend have a problem

Tyme, maybe I empathize with Doug because that's the sort of thing I deal with most of the time. I have girl friends calling me or messaging me in the middle of the night to talk with. The thing was that after I got into my relationship now, I did put my foot down and that pretty much halted most of the late night calls except for when they are serious.

I do however spend a lot of time with my housemate who is also my best friend. The level of contact there can be taken for granted because we live together. I spend time in her room till late nights and we share a comfortable platonic relationship. Hence I sypathize with situations like this.

I don't know the exact details of the situation, but if Doug showed her, then he's wanting to prove a point which means what you say about his attention seeking is right. But if Mary did take it from him, then something is wrong on Mary's end as well.

If the former is true, then I'd suggest Mary stop seeing Doug simply because Doug isn't really into Mary and the relationship would go nowhere. If he can't do enough to put his foot down on the matter between Hazel and him then I doubt he's willing to go all the way. It should then be sorted out between Doug and Hazel which by then would have no third wheel and that should end the problem.

It's a matter of self-realization in this case.

So...

Mary = Tyme
Doug = Mike
Hazel = Scrivs

am I missing anything ?

;)

Relationships are about setting boundaries. Doug's relationship with Hazel is encroaching on his partnership with Mary and therefore a discussion needs to be had and a common boundary established.

I cannot stress enough the importance of good conversation: one person talks the other listens. When the talker stops the listener reflects back to the talker and then offers his/her opinion.

Ultimately Doug is going to have to tell Hazel that his telephone relationship with her is straining his life with Mary and although this doesn't mean no longer talking to each other, it means finding the right time and right number of times to talk.

No doubt Mary is feeling left out and neglected by Doug so another way of solving this is not only to reduce Doug's call time with Hazel but to bring Mary into the discussion and into contact with Hazel.

I don't think that Mary needs to look at Doug's cell phone bills to get an idea of how much time he and Hazel spend texting and talking to each other. Just producing the cell phone bills (no matter whose idea) just confirms it. I mean, percentages like 80-90%? If they're hanging out half as much as a boyfriend-girlfriend should be, then I'm pretty sure Mary is getting a fairly accurate idea just by seeing Doug on his phone all the time, typing in keys (texting) or talking. It's not a point of whether Mary is being encroaching, herself. I don't think any of this deserves to be put on her.

The concept of Doug craving attention, here, is pretty apparent. Whether he's a too-nice guy or simply a guy who doesn't know how to say No (or varying percentages of both), there's always a reason why boundaries, when they would benefit any relationship with a significant other, aren't set. It's out of selfish motivation.

Kinda reminds me of the "scandal" in Arkansas with the football coach getting an tsunami of text messages from his "friend."

Guess I'd have to agree with most everyone else. That's an absurd number of messages. I'd imagine it's an absurd number of messages regardless of the context. Hard to really figure without being personally involved, and knowing the people more intimately, but it appears those two have created a co-dependancy. Ultimately, it's doesn't serve any of them. No one's gonna get their needs met.

I place primary responsibility of this situation on Doug who has not been able to set limits on this woman and who likely is enabling it by his refusal to do so. If anyone else on earth continued this insane pattern, you would consider legal recourse called stalking. Doug can do concrete things such as getting a different number and decide which relationship he values. I echo one of the above comments; it really does stink that the three of them put you in the equation. Please try to get out of the spot and remain healthy in the process.

@Andrew - Hazel has to be interfering in all areas of Doug's life because she'll call any time of day...while he's working, sleeping, socializing, etc. Mary was talking, Doug was listening and dismissing. Doug thought it was okay so he would not compromise.

@thesirdanny - I hopped online while they were here (Doug had a business call) and thank God Mike was online for a guy's opinion. I asked him if it was normal and he said no.

@Kamigoroshi - Doug was definitely trying to prove everything was ok, Mary had nothing to be worried about, etc. I agree that relationship will not last because Mary isn't the focus, Hazel is.

I compared this to my own life. The majority of my friends are male and I make this very well-known when I'm dating a man. One of the very first things the guy I am dating will ask, "Do they know about me?". Very early on they want boundaries set. If I go out with another man the man I am dating expects me to make it clear to the guy I'm going out with that it is not a date because my romantic interest is elsewhere, but it's cool to hang out as friends. If things cross a line the guy I am seeing expects me to not dodge it but to set it straight immediately. That type of situation makes a Hazel issue unlikely to occur. It's a matter of respect.

The difference between a child and an adult is the ability to make mature decisions. If a person doesn't have enough maturity to set boundaries that maintain respect and foster trust, no relationship will survive. That is why I was so stunned Doug would not compromise with Mary.

If a man (or woman) is unwilling to set those boundaries and maintain that respect (which fosters trust) no relationship will survive. That is why I was so stunned Doug would not compromise with Mary. He didn't seem that type of guy and I've known him for years.

@estarla - That's what brought it up - Mary is unable to have 1on1 time with Doug without her contacting him no matter what time of day it is. Doug is being very selfish. My friend Yolanda believes he does not want to deal with the drama Hazel will create if he put his foot down. To that I responded is Doug a man or a child?

@auburn: I agree. I was taken completely by surprise. It should be interesting because Doug is invited to my BBQ today and he asked yesterday if it would be ok to bring Mary.

From your explanation. I think it is a little excessive. If your friend was single, then it would be a little more okay. It's easy to get lonely if you're not seeing someone and you don't have a close group of core friends. But, at the same time, if your friend becomes involved with someone, you should probably take a few steps back. Give them room to get to know each other and see where the relationship will go, if anywhere. It's going to be hard for your friend to do that with the constant distraction Hazel's bringing to the table.

@Ryan - that's the thing - he does have friends so loneliness isn't an issue. Technically he "is" single because Mary isn't his girlfriend yet but is it fair to tell Hazel when he's not attached it's okay to do that and when he is to stop? That kind of yanks Hazel around. I can imagine how Hazel might be upset if told to back off because she's been allowed to do it for so long (not that it's right - she should back off with no questions asked).

Boundaries have to be set in any relationship. Hazel is taking advantage and it Doug's fault this is happening. Men do it all the time.

As an example, I met a man, he approached me, asked me on a date, we had a great time. I could tell he was interested in me but come to find out his true feelings are for another woman. Why go out with me? Why not tell me upfront I would only be a friend? The woman has feelings for was not pleased he went out on a date with me and it is causing a problem in their relationship. I'm trying not to feel like a relationship wrecker because I didn't know, if I had I wouldn't have went out with him. His selfishness created a hurtful situation for all involved, unnecessarily.

Doug is doing the same thing by not being honest with Hazel. She obviously views him as more as a friend. Why not make his actions match is words?

I'm sorry you had to go through that. Having been in a similar situation before (except I was the girlfriend and it went down rather publicly) I know from experience that is something I have a hard time getting over. Ok, not hard - I don't get over it.

A man that could ask a woman out, put his feelings aside for me (like a book on a shelf), go on a date with her and basically lie and mislead her all night - that's not the guy for me. That's not a man I can trust. That's not a man I would respect and definitely not one I would be proud of.

I learned I can endure a lot of shit, but that's not one of them. In my own experience I was not mad at the woman, I placed it all on my significant other. The girlfriend in your case might feel the same way - mad at him, not at you because you are a victim just as much as she is.

Update: Doug stopped by and guess what? His cell phone started going off. He showed me some of the messages. Very girlfriendish IMO. Mary did not come. She has requested some space to think things through.

Well, it's not hard for Mary to think things through. It's not worth dating a person who doesn't love you more than you love them.

Doug needs to think things through to. Most people tend to deny their feelings towards other people. Then again, words don't have meaning of their own. Their actions do.

As long as they don't overly complicate things, then life should sort this situation out soon enough.